Geeks vs. Weasels: An Interview With
Chris Duncan About the Unending War Between Development and Marketing
(and Some Ideas on Dealing with It)

(From the www.softwaremarketsolution.com archives)

Overview

As regular visitors to this site know, we recently reviewed Christopher Duncan's The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (published by Apress, www.apress.com) and liked it a great deal. Chris is currently president of Show Programming of Atlanta, Inc. (www.showprogramming.com) a consulting firm dedicated to helping the often frustrated inhabitants of Cubicle City learn how to break the rules and achieve greater success for both their company and their careers. Chris can be reached at Chris@ShowProgramming.com.

Since Chris is one of those rare programmers who comes out of a sales and marketing background (and no, a summer working at the fries station at your local McDonald's does NOT entitle you to make that claim), we decided it would be fun to talk to him about a topic dear to our hearts; the ongoing conflict in software companies between development and the sales and marketing groups. Our previous excerpt from In Search of Stupidity: 20+ Years of High Tech Marketing Disasters dealt with a classic situation where a breakdown in communications between development and marketing put the final nail in the coffin of what had been on of the industry's largest companies, MicroPro, publisher of WordStar. We continue along that theme with the first of this two part series.

SMS: I understand you were in sales & marketing prior to programming. What's your marketing background?

Chris: I lied. I've never worked in marketing or sales a day in my life!

SMS: Say, you HAVE been a sales and marketing guy!

Chris: Yes, I learned it's important to always establish credibility before trying to close a sale.

SMS: OK, before we descend too deeply into paradox here, seriously, before you became a programmer, what did you do?

Chris: I ran a telemarketing company in the 70's called "Eduverse." We would come in and set up a soup to nuts telemarketing operation: script development, sales training, equipment everything.

SMS: Was this an operation dedicated to high tech telemarketing?

Chris: Nope. We helped companies sell advertising, auto parts, even weed killers.

SMS: What made you change careers?

Chris: In the course of my work I began to develop software to manage the numbers, just out of self defense. I became acquainted with Turbo C and before I knew it, I was hooked. Programming is an addiction. One day I just decided coding was what I wanted to do next. However, my time spent running Eduverse was very useful to me in my career; it gave me a perspective of the marketing and sales side of the industry that has proven invaluable to me over the years.

SMS: OK, let's get to it. So, what does sales/marketing do to make programmers twitch?

Chris: Well, first of all, let's discuss compensation. This is something that many companies rarely think about, but it's an important factor in understanding some of the normal friction that exists between marketing and sales and development.

SMS: Before we go further, we do want to point out that we differentiate between marketing and sales in a high tech operation. Marketing is responsible for the back end of a sales effort: market analysis and projections, forecasting, Marcom, etc.

Chris: I agree with that. Further on in the interview, let's take that up in greater detail.

Now, back to compensation. One of the inherent points of conflict in most software and development firms is that the sales side of a company is usually compensated on a quota basis; development on the other hand, is salaried.

This leads to that interesting situation lived through by every programmer where a sales force will return from a series of presentations, walk into development, and announce they've just promised their prospective clients that the product is going to do X, Y and Z. Then they ask the development group how long that's going to take. All the programmers look at each other, do some quick mental calculations, burn some incense, sacrifice a couple of chickens, and say "about a year."

The sales and marketing group then says something like "uh, well, we've just put out a press release announcing we'll have these capabilities in a month."

That causes a lot of twitching and foaming at the mouth. There have also been some incidents involving keyboards traveling at a high rate of speed, but the non-discloser agreements that I've signed prevent me from being any more specific. But it's a hard point to reconcile. Sales ultimately puts bread onto everybody's table and they're inclined to do whatever it takes to close deals. And they're usually under the gun to do it.

Development, on the other hand, feels quite rightly that without their products sales has no reason to exist. And doing things right takes time.

SMS: What else generates friction between the two groups?

Chris: Basic work attitudes. It's important for sales and marketers to understand that most coders regard programming as a religion. Programmers are typically never happier than when they're working in isolation on solving an interesting problem using cool tools. Programming is their passion and their joy; it's how they "keep score" of their lives.

A sales and marketing group is usually more dispassionate about products. They keep score with money, by closing deals. And to do this, they have to be more relationship driven.

SMS: That's a good point. The essence of effective sales and marketing is learning to communicate and persuade people to take a particular course of action; that's never an easy thing to do and it takes a lot of work and time to develop those skills.

Chris: Yes, and the programming mindset isn't one that tends to focus on developing relationships. Programmers like solving tangible puzzles; the "intangibility" of relationship development is often something that eludes them. Compared to weasels, geeks typically have all the social graces of a porcupine having a bad hair day.

SMS: OK, let's look at from the other side. Why does marketing/sales tend to ignore their developers?

Chris: Development, on the other hand, wants everyone to know all the wonderful things their product can do. They've labored over this new code base and they're proud of what they've produced. Since they're focused on providing features, not to mention being logical creatures by nature, they simply don't see how you can sell a product if you don't have a complete understanding of it.

Of course, in the end, they're both right. Anyone in sales is familiar with the acronym "KISS", i.e., Keep It Simple, Stupid! (I've actually heard more colorful phrases than "stupid", but we'll leave that for another day.) Marketing concentrates on presenting the product, and sales focuses on closing the deal. Whether it's a direct or indirect sale, the simpler you can keep the pitch, the easier it is for the customer to say yes. On the other hand, the more the marketing people understand about the in depth workings of the software, the better variety they have to choose from for those top six features. Better product knowledge is also extremely valuable for having solid rebuttals to customer objections, particularly when a competing product is brought up by the customer for comparison. The more you know, the better you can dance.

SMS: With this as a background, what kind of problems do these conflicting ideas and agendas create in the software business today?

Chris: In my opinion, the top problem has been a profound deterioration in quality control. The industry, in contrast to other businesses, is creating larger and larger products of poorer and poorer quality. The Internet has only accelerated this problem. Before, if you put out a product with a significant bug, you were faced with some serious cost issues. Mailing out that replacement CD or floppy and managing support calls from frantic customers wasn't free.

Now, of course, everyone slaps patches up on a web site and expects the customer to find them and download them. Worst of all, customers have been trained to simply accept this as normal. Once you get away with a bad practice, it's not a bad practice anymore; it's a standard.

SMS: How can the marketing department help address these issues? The reality has been that latest and greatest usually trumps smaller and more stable. Microsoft is a testament to that.

Chris: Times change. Microsoft, with their security problems over the last several years, has also helped highlight the issue of quality control.

Look, let's look at the car market for an example of what I mean. Remember when the Japanese cars first hit the market seriously in the 70's? Initially, it was the fact that they weren't gas guzzlers that made them popular, but the American car companies were able to catch up in that area quickly. It's really not that hard to make a cheap piece of tin that gets decent gas mileage. What was it that helped the Japanese hold onto their market share and steadily increase it over time? Styling? I think not; Toyotas and Datsuns of that era were just plain ugly. More features? This ain't rocket science. I need a steering wheel, brakes, a drive train and tires.

The tactical edge was quality. You could reasonably expect something from Tokyo to give you at least 70-80K miles of reliable service; a 100K run or more was not uncommon. How long did American cars of that era last? Essentially, the Japanese focus was on quality. Detroit, on the other hand, has had some embarrassing incidents over the years documenting the fact that they believed in built in obsolescence; build it to break early, so that the consumer will have to throw it away and buy another one. Given the advances that Japan made into the American auto market, it's clear which strategy proved more effective in the long run.

SMS: We actually talk about this in the introduction to Stupidity. How you got about 20K miles before the mirrors fell off, the tires went flat, the first rust spots appeared, etc., etc.

Chris: Absolutely. And quality is why Honda and Toyota are still the most popular cars you can buy today. In fact, before I bought the Corvette that I drive these days, I had two Toyotas purchased specifically because of the quality. So why did I switch to an American car? Japan isn't real big on hot rods. Nothing they have touches a Vette, which is America's top quality muscle car. In fact, one of the testing procedures for Corvettes is to drive them literally full throttle, non-stop, for an entire tank of gas. So once again, quality sells. (If I ever give up programming, I may apply for a job with GM's testing division.)

And hey, while we're on the subject, even if latest and greatest trumps small and stable, isn't it marketing's job to make quality a feature that they can sell?

SMS: Uh, yes it is, now that you mention it....

SMS: What benefits can marketing bring to individual programmers?

Chris: People skills and an understanding of their value in your career advancement. One of the things that's helped me over the course of my career as a programmer is my ability to communicate with people. If I had to go into a meeting with another programmer to argue for a particular project or approach to a problem I always had the advantage. Not only were they not trained in the tactics of persuasion, they rarely knew that I was.

That carries over into the conflict between sales and marketing and development. Put a programmer and a sales rep into a room with senior management to discuss a point of contention and the sales person is usually going to win the argument. The reason? The rep knows how to communicate and make their case. They've been trained to do it and do it effectively. Or they're naturally good with people, which is why they're in sales to begin with.

SMS: OK, let's assume you're an ambitious programmer who sees the value of schmooze and wants to learn how. Any suggestions as to what they can do?

Chris: There are literally thousands of books on the market from which you can gain insight into persuasion, negotiation and sales. However, the first prerequisite is simple. You have to want to learn. Regardless of where you sit in the food chain, it's never a bad idea to learn how to be effective in what everyone calls "water cooler" politics.

SMS: You mean "lunch room" diplomacy?

Chris: That too. It's also a good idea for programmers to pursue friendships with people from the marketing and sales sides of the business. Ask questions about what's happening out in the real world. Watch and learn how a good marketer or sales rep asks open ended questions that encourages someone to provide them with more and more information. That in and of itself is immensely valuable when navigating the politics of software projects.

Building relationships with sales isn't the unholy alliance that many programmers think it to be. You don't have to become a card carrying weasel to befriend one. And you'll never find someone easier to get to know than a sales rep. After all, building relationships is what they do for a living. The first step is simply tearing down the wall that everyone knows exists by default between marketing and developers. Saunter over to the marketing side of the house, or just catch them in the break room or hallway. Strike up a casual conversation with them as you would with anyone else you know.

SMS:Now the magic happens. Express an interest in what they do, let them see your curiosity and simply exhibit a sincere desire to know more about that person and how their end of the world works. Having done that, shut up and listen. You'll get an earful, for as long as you care to listen. And listen often. As long as you're truly sincere about wanting to know them better and understand their job, they'll pour their hearts out to you. People love to talk about themselves. Furthermore, by simply showing an interest in them, they'll quickly consider you a friend. They might even invite you to the occasional reindeer game. If you pay attention to what you're hearing, what they do, and how they do it, it's worth more than all the books in the world.

And should they ever question why you're suddenly so interested in them, you can answer honestly. Just tell them that you've finally come to realize that their abilities with people are extremely valuable skills, and also that without them moving the merchandise, no one would have a job. In such ways are alliances formed.

SMS: OK, let's look at it from the other side. How would a better understanding of programmers help marketing increase sales?

Chris: By realizing that developing a deeper understanding of the underlying technology of the software they're selling ultimately helps boost sales. Sales people like to talk a great deal about how they sell "benefits," not features. Well, I have to point out that unless you have an idea of what the features are, you're not going to have much success mapping them to benefits. Or "solutions." Or whatever the current fashionable buzzword is in Corporate Speak these days.

Of course, you could just lie. However, lying is for amateurs.

SMS: You should spend more time looking at the CRM market.

Chris: The best of the best don't have to lie. They can sell. And the more you know your product, the better armed you are when it comes time to make the presentation.

SMS: How much of a product's feature set do you estimate a sales person should learn? Any suggestions as to how to approach the educational issue?

Chris: It's unrealistic to expect marketing to become experts at using the software that they're selling. That only comes from months or years of day-to-day use. However, for a truly dedicated person, there's a little known trick of the trade. RTFM. Really. If you sit down with the manual and a notepad, read the darned thing cover to cover and take notes like you were back in college, you're going to know more about what it can do than anyone but the developers, because, as we all know, nobody reads the manual.

Once you've done that, condense your notes and make a list of questions that they raise in your mind. Then do the same thing that I just recommended to the other side of the house. Take some time, catch a programmer in the break room (not while he's coding!), and strike up a conversation. It works both ways. If you express a sincere desire to understand this cool software that they're passionately involved with, you just became the coolest guy in marketing. Hell, they might even give you an honorary pocket protector. You'll not only get the answers to your questions and more, you'll get something even more valuable: a friend on the development team, an ally.

Build and foster that relationship the same way that I recommended for programmers. Your new developer friend will make sure that you're armed to the teeth the next time you have to go up against the competition.

SMS: As you know, we also recently reviewed How Computer Programming Works by Daniel Appleman. We thought this book was very valuable because its use of illustrations and text helps non-programmers visualize many programming concepts that are often Greek to people. Do you think sales and marketing personnel should receive some training in basic programming concepts as part of their overall sales training?

Chris: You're going to have as much luck getting marketing people to take programming courses as you are programmers taking courses in sales. It just ain't gonna happen. Your best bet, in addition to making friends on the development side of the house, is to hit the local bookstore. Browse the shelves, and you'll find that there are often multiple books on the same topic. Find the ones that speak to you personally, and read them. Then, take what you've learned from reading into your next conversation with your developer friends, and just let the spiral of mutual learning continue.

SMS: Are there other business benefits to understanding the techie side of things?

Chris: You bet. Another benefit is the ability to avoid wasting time and money on the latest hot wonder technology. Let me give a real life example. I was part of a project for one of the major phone companies to build a database application that needed to be synchronized and replicated across thirty cities. The project required the code be rock solid and operational on a 24/7 basis. The product's underlying architecture was a peer to peer model on a Windows platform. Changes made in one city immediately appeared in all others.

This was one of those projects that make you happy to be a programmer. We finished the product on time and under budget. The application worked as spec'd and promised. The code was tight and clean.

SMS: And?

Chris: And then the entire project was scrapped because upper management decided that the hot new thing was the Internet and that the application had to be rewritten for the web with a UNIX back end. So they wrote it all over again, from scratch, to gain no new benefits.

SMS: Sounds like something a telco would do. Were there any good technical reasons for this decision?

Chris: There are ALWAYS "good" technical reasons for doing something. Any decent programmer can come up with a "good" technical reason for doing anything. The question is: do these reasons bring enough business benefits to spend hundreds or millions of dollars of programming resources and time? In this case the answer was no; everyone just wanted to play with new technology.

If you have an understanding of the basic technical issues underlying these arguments you are far more likely to make an intelligent business-based decision.

SMS: Let's talk about what marketing and sales brings to the issue of gathering software requirements. After all, marketing and sales are always proclaiming that they're "closest" to the customer.

Chris: Earlier in the interview we discussed the fact that there is a difference between marketing and sales. (Editor's note: For more insight into this issue, we suggest you read our earlier article, The Scariest Question in High Tech Today.

In this area marketing, not sales, is your best friend. A good product marketing group will have a strong grasp on usability issues, neat technology, insight into what people want and like.

SMS: What about the sales force?

Chris: A sales force is focused on meeting quotas and satisfying customers. Too often they'll promise everything, even the patently undeliverable, to make sales if they're allowed to. It's the job of the marketing group to filter and organize all the requests, demands, and screams coming from sales and package it up for development.

SMS: If you could change one thing about the relationship between marketing and programmers, what would it be?

Chris: I'm working hard to help people realize that internal company alliances are what we should work for, to the benefit of us all. Not only would a huge amount of time and money be saved that's currently wasted on turf wars and politics, it's easy from our discussion to see that no matter what your high school math teacher told you, one plus one is always greater than two.

SMS: Chris, thanks very much. Just don't write any Booleans incorporating that logic into your code!